Insurance for my kid
- Thread starter rldwallace
- Start date
The work-around I have heard people using is to tell the insurance company that it's your bike and that you will be riding it. Don't even mention the kid. The pink slip they give you is then presented to the cop as needed. I'm not telling you to do this or that it is guaranteed to work but I do know of people that do it. I got lucky when my kids were young and found a policy with the appropriate endorsement without having to move my other insurance business to them but I couldn't do that now. This is the sort of crap we pay OFTR to try to fix.
Just call for a quote, say it's your bike but you want to add OPCF 32 and make it clear that it's for off road use only. It provides coverage when any person who does not have a drivers license, or is not authorized by law to drive, operates or drives your recreational vehicle off a public highway.
Don't go into details.
Don't go into details.
SimonGagne
Member
mart242":3v3enuko said:
I tried that... the broker was not the issue, but then when he sent the paperwork to the insurance company offices, they saw the bike were smaller displacement(50 &110) and they made me sign a paper stating the bikes will not be used by any underage operator living in the same household and that doing so would void insurance coverage and constitute a false insurance declaration that could affect my other premiums(car, house, etc).
Not sure if it would hold in court, but it doesn't seem to be in my favour.
And yes, I did call all the insurers\brokers I could find that advertise offroad insurance.
So right now I pay for insurance that doesn't even really provide coverage and risk increasing all my other premiums, just so I can get the pink slip and avoid potential tickets. I've tried really hard to do this following all the rules and being law-abiding, but at this point, I'm seriously considering not having insurance on my kid's bikes and take my chances with the fines given that I have never been stopped for insurance\registration in 4 years of regular riding with my kids.
I find it sad this comes to that, but that's pretty much it: either you lie to your insurance company or your ride with no insurance for your kids!
Simon
Trevd
New member
Try George Rappos. Insured a 50 and a 100 this year, no problem.
https://www.georgerappos.com
Trevor
https://www.georgerappos.com
Trevor
Trevd
New member
Cancel my previous post about George Rappos.... I contacted him to replace one bike on the policy with a 110, and he informed me that Desjardins no longer insures bikes under 150cc.... My other bikes have been grandfathered in, so that's good, but our new 110 needs to be insured somewhere else.
Trevor
Trevor
Hi Guys, new here and also struggling with this issue.
It does seem quite unjust that we legally have to have insurance to access public lands, but the government does not guarantee us access to insurance. It is a particular problem as we are talking this in the context of the struggle to get kids outdoors and into the wilderness.
I recently tripped over a similar problem. I had a 2015 KTM Freeride, blue plated, and had off-road insurance on it through SF. I sold that and bought a CRF450L, though I only intended on riding it off road. I tried to transfer the policy over, and was told that I cannot have an off-road policy on an on-road motorcycle. I called around for alternatives, resigned to the fact that I will have to pay for on-road insurance, but Co-operators wouldn't write the policy unless I brought over all my business. The quote I got was about $1000 higher for my other business exclusive of the new motorcycle policy. So essentially it would cost about $1500 to insure my bike. How is it possible that the insurance industry has regulated rates, but they can pick and choose who they will sell a policy to?
Anyway, so I have a CRF110, XR80, and CRF150F that I need insurance on for the family.
It does seem quite unjust that we legally have to have insurance to access public lands, but the government does not guarantee us access to insurance. It is a particular problem as we are talking this in the context of the struggle to get kids outdoors and into the wilderness.
I recently tripped over a similar problem. I had a 2015 KTM Freeride, blue plated, and had off-road insurance on it through SF. I sold that and bought a CRF450L, though I only intended on riding it off road. I tried to transfer the policy over, and was told that I cannot have an off-road policy on an on-road motorcycle. I called around for alternatives, resigned to the fact that I will have to pay for on-road insurance, but Co-operators wouldn't write the policy unless I brought over all my business. The quote I got was about $1000 higher for my other business exclusive of the new motorcycle policy. So essentially it would cost about $1500 to insure my bike. How is it possible that the insurance industry has regulated rates, but they can pick and choose who they will sell a policy to?
Anyway, so I have a CRF110, XR80, and CRF150F that I need insurance on for the family.
Oh, it gets worse.
So I called my broker, Jennifer Hunt in Barrie. They were State Farm but are now Desjardins/Certas. Have had an off-road policy with them on my KTM Freeride for years. I sold that bike a month ago and cancelled the policy. But I wanted to see if it was still active so maybe I could "grandfather" my kids bikes into the existing policy. Turn out they never even cancelled the policy, it was still alive. Not going to worry about $6/month it was costing me, and figured this was a good thing.
So I said I wanted to transfer the policy to a 2012 Honda CRF150F. This is the bike my wife rides. I was asked if the kids would ride it, and I said they would not. They can not ride it, physically, they can't touch the ground. I could hear trouble brewing in the way the conversation was going and started recording. I said the kids cannot ride it, but I did have two other bikes I wanted to discuss adding to the policy for the kids, after we were done dealing with the first one. She put me on hold about 15 minutes. Came back, and said that they do not insure any machine 150cc or less, as obviously these are intended for children, and they do not write policies for children. I knew this was above her pay grade, but I argued this policy was illogical. CRF150F is a large motorcycle with a small engine, children cannot physically ride it, but it's a very sensible bike for inexperienced adults to learn on. Of course none of that matters. That is the policy.
Absolute insanity. So I cannot get insurance for my wife now because I bought her a sensibly powered machine?!
I had actually thought about trading in my wife's CRF150F for a big-wheel 125 as she's still struggling a bit with the 150. At 250lbs it's a bit heavy. That seems like a bad idea now. Seems like we're being forced into a 230-250.
I'm not normally "that guy" but this almost seems like a human rights issue. My wife is 5'6" with 28" inseam, and she's being force into riding a bike that is too big for her because of an ill-considered policy. It seems the whole thing stems from ATV's and =<150cc ATV are kids machines. But even that is a stupid policy because a child CAN sit on and drive a full-size ATV. This rule does nothing.
So I called my broker, Jennifer Hunt in Barrie. They were State Farm but are now Desjardins/Certas. Have had an off-road policy with them on my KTM Freeride for years. I sold that bike a month ago and cancelled the policy. But I wanted to see if it was still active so maybe I could "grandfather" my kids bikes into the existing policy. Turn out they never even cancelled the policy, it was still alive. Not going to worry about $6/month it was costing me, and figured this was a good thing.
So I said I wanted to transfer the policy to a 2012 Honda CRF150F. This is the bike my wife rides. I was asked if the kids would ride it, and I said they would not. They can not ride it, physically, they can't touch the ground. I could hear trouble brewing in the way the conversation was going and started recording. I said the kids cannot ride it, but I did have two other bikes I wanted to discuss adding to the policy for the kids, after we were done dealing with the first one. She put me on hold about 15 minutes. Came back, and said that they do not insure any machine 150cc or less, as obviously these are intended for children, and they do not write policies for children. I knew this was above her pay grade, but I argued this policy was illogical. CRF150F is a large motorcycle with a small engine, children cannot physically ride it, but it's a very sensible bike for inexperienced adults to learn on. Of course none of that matters. That is the policy.
Absolute insanity. So I cannot get insurance for my wife now because I bought her a sensibly powered machine?!
I had actually thought about trading in my wife's CRF150F for a big-wheel 125 as she's still struggling a bit with the 150. At 250lbs it's a bit heavy. That seems like a bad idea now. Seems like we're being forced into a 230-250.
I'm not normally "that guy" but this almost seems like a human rights issue. My wife is 5'6" with 28" inseam, and she's being force into riding a bike that is too big for her because of an ill-considered policy. It seems the whole thing stems from ATV's and =<150cc ATV are kids machines. But even that is a stupid policy because a child CAN sit on and drive a full-size ATV. This rule does nothing.
Trevd
New member
I contacted Kyle Brown from Dalton Timmis (now NFP), and this is what he replied with regarding the OTFR insurance program they have:
Here is a recap of the OFTR program as it stands today for kids.
Children over the age of 10 on bikes greater than 100cc's can have insurance picked up and will be noted in the background of the policy. This means they will not be individually listed by name on the declaration pages as they are not of age to hold a license so programming will not show on the actual paperwork. They are listed on the company program and the application paperwork by full name, date of birth and the bike then intend to ride.
To qualify for this program we use a parents license data. Motorcycle license is not a must but is an assist when determining premium. 3* out of 6 without and potential for 6* out of 6 with a full M. Depends on years licensed with the full M.
The bikes must be accompanied by the Autos and Home/Condo policy in order to write the motorcycles. There are no exceptions on this as the company that has agreed to do this does not write standalone bike and I also stress that this is something they have completely made an exception on as their filed rule is to decline all off-road bikes. (Declining off-road bikes is not uncommon. Most carriers do this.)
There are advantages to having insurance in this program as well. It is treated like a group so there are no fees for monthly payments and one of the more unique features is that for every recreational vehicle added to the policy up to a limit of 3 will lower the annual cost of your auto insurance. You can have more than 3 recreational vehicles but the added discount stops at 3.
So, if your kid is under 10 years old, you're screwed. If you don't like being forced into bringing all your business to one company just to insure a dirt bike, you're screwed.
This situation is beyond frustrating.
It is easy to buy your kid an Xbox and plop him in front of the TV, but trying to get out there and do something fun and exciting is met with obstacles put up by insurance companies.
I could legally put my kid on a bicycle, and send him down Bronson Ave, or any other busy street in the province, into full traffic, with no training, no license, and ... no insurance, and that would be perfectly fine. But trying to get him out into the woods on a 4 hp machine with 10 inch wheels, good luck overcoming the bureaucratic insanity that seems to have permeated the insurance industry. Seems to me that if the insurance companies will not offer reasonably priced insurance for certain activities that are legal, then those activities should not legally require insurance. What kind of society are we going to have if we allow insurance companies to decide what activities we are able to do?
Last year when I had problems insuring my son's 50, I reached out the OFTR. They are definitely aware of the problem. And Arthur Ash, the OFTR president, also told me that they have been unable to find any claims for years for kids on bikes. I reached out to him again this year when I had problems insuring my son's new 110, and he said that they are considering making the issue the focus of their lobbying efforts next year. I really hope they do. If you feel like they should make it the lobbying priority, it might not hurt to send them an email asking them to make is so. The OFTR email address is: info@oftr.ca
Trevor
Here is a recap of the OFTR program as it stands today for kids.
Children over the age of 10 on bikes greater than 100cc's can have insurance picked up and will be noted in the background of the policy. This means they will not be individually listed by name on the declaration pages as they are not of age to hold a license so programming will not show on the actual paperwork. They are listed on the company program and the application paperwork by full name, date of birth and the bike then intend to ride.
To qualify for this program we use a parents license data. Motorcycle license is not a must but is an assist when determining premium. 3* out of 6 without and potential for 6* out of 6 with a full M. Depends on years licensed with the full M.
The bikes must be accompanied by the Autos and Home/Condo policy in order to write the motorcycles. There are no exceptions on this as the company that has agreed to do this does not write standalone bike and I also stress that this is something they have completely made an exception on as their filed rule is to decline all off-road bikes. (Declining off-road bikes is not uncommon. Most carriers do this.)
There are advantages to having insurance in this program as well. It is treated like a group so there are no fees for monthly payments and one of the more unique features is that for every recreational vehicle added to the policy up to a limit of 3 will lower the annual cost of your auto insurance. You can have more than 3 recreational vehicles but the added discount stops at 3.
So, if your kid is under 10 years old, you're screwed. If you don't like being forced into bringing all your business to one company just to insure a dirt bike, you're screwed.
This situation is beyond frustrating.
It is easy to buy your kid an Xbox and plop him in front of the TV, but trying to get out there and do something fun and exciting is met with obstacles put up by insurance companies.
I could legally put my kid on a bicycle, and send him down Bronson Ave, or any other busy street in the province, into full traffic, with no training, no license, and ... no insurance, and that would be perfectly fine. But trying to get him out into the woods on a 4 hp machine with 10 inch wheels, good luck overcoming the bureaucratic insanity that seems to have permeated the insurance industry. Seems to me that if the insurance companies will not offer reasonably priced insurance for certain activities that are legal, then those activities should not legally require insurance. What kind of society are we going to have if we allow insurance companies to decide what activities we are able to do?
Last year when I had problems insuring my son's 50, I reached out the OFTR. They are definitely aware of the problem. And Arthur Ash, the OFTR president, also told me that they have been unable to find any claims for years for kids on bikes. I reached out to him again this year when I had problems insuring my son's new 110, and he said that they are considering making the issue the focus of their lobbying efforts next year. I really hope they do. If you feel like they should make it the lobbying priority, it might not hurt to send them an email asking them to make is so. The OFTR email address is: info@oftr.ca
Trevor
Just an FYI...
I had insurance with Dalton Timmis for a year. had to bring everything over, price was good for the first year and they were awesome to work with. However on the 2nd year for no reason my rate went up almost 40% and they wouldn't do anything about it and wouldn't tell me why it jump so much. Big time bait and switch scam for pricing, and i wasn't the only one they did this too.
I had insurance with Dalton Timmis for a year. had to bring everything over, price was good for the first year and they were awesome to work with. However on the 2nd year for no reason my rate went up almost 40% and they wouldn't do anything about it and wouldn't tell me why it jump so much. Big time bait and switch scam for pricing, and i wasn't the only one they did this too.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do believe this is actually the law. The government cannot promulgate regulations that are impossible to abide by. There has to be a "means of compliance".
I was on the board of directors of Unmanned Systems Canada 2 years ago when the government instituted new regulations on the industry. Previous to the official regulations, there had only been some ad-hoc rules. One of those rules was that all drone operators (recreational or commercial) needed insurance. Unbelievably when they brought in the new regulations, they dropped the requirement for insurance. The rest of the regulations are quite onerous, so it was shocking that they made this change. Acquiring insurance was difficult, but not impossible. They said that they had to do it because insurance was not available to all.
It seems to me that in the past it was possible to get insurance, but it's not really any more. We should be organizing to fight this.
I was in Limerick yesterday and asked a few parents with kids how they got insurance. They didn't. Non-compliance is high and they are just throwing themselves at the mercy of the police.
Did some calling around today. I called 3 different State Farm Agents. My original one in Barrie: Jennifer Hunt. Sheldon Carrasco in Nepean, and Kirk Norris in Peterborough who is a big time supporter of this sport. All said the same thing: They do not sell insurance for kids bikes, and that means anything 150cc or smaller.
The lady I spoke with at Kirk Norris was by far the most helpful and sympathetic. She said the changed happened on May 7th, which explains why I have met many people who said they got a new policy even this year. She also agreed that 150CC and under is a bad policy as it excludes the most popular women's motorcycles: 125cc's. Apparently they have been pushing back on "head office" on this but not gotten anywhere. She has been selling this insurance for 13 years and has only ever heard of one claim, and it wasn't for a youth, it was a man with a serious brain injury. She couldn't suggest anybody else to call.
I've also heard that TD sells insurance, so I called them. They said they do not sell off-road motorcycle insurance. Period. I called back and talked to another person to be sure the first wasn't mistaken. Second person said the same thing. They don't sell off-road insurance, not even to men. I don't understand this at all as at least one person in this club said they bought insurance for their kids from TD.
Still have to check in on Dalton Timmis and Cooperators.
The lady I spoke with at Kirk Norris was by far the most helpful and sympathetic. She said the changed happened on May 7th, which explains why I have met many people who said they got a new policy even this year. She also agreed that 150CC and under is a bad policy as it excludes the most popular women's motorcycles: 125cc's. Apparently they have been pushing back on "head office" on this but not gotten anywhere. She has been selling this insurance for 13 years and has only ever heard of one claim, and it wasn't for a youth, it was a man with a serious brain injury. She couldn't suggest anybody else to call.
I've also heard that TD sells insurance, so I called them. They said they do not sell off-road motorcycle insurance. Period. I called back and talked to another person to be sure the first wasn't mistaken. Second person said the same thing. They don't sell off-road insurance, not even to men. I don't understand this at all as at least one person in this club said they bought insurance for their kids from TD.
Still have to check in on Dalton Timmis and Cooperators.
manotickmike
New member
Any updates on this?
I don't have any "skin" in this game, but unless something changes, this sport sure will.
Shrinking areas, shrinking access, increasing legislation, and no viable way to be legally compliant is going to terminate the entrance to the activity.
There is no point appealing to the insurance industry.
They are not about providing a service, they are there to provide record profits every quarter to the shareholders, just like the banks.
Apparently just a healthy profit is not sufficient to sell shares these days.
The fact that there was only one reasonable company to deal with should have been a warning sign.
I don't have any "skin" in this game, but unless something changes, this sport sure will.
Shrinking areas, shrinking access, increasing legislation, and no viable way to be legally compliant is going to terminate the entrance to the activity.
There is no point appealing to the insurance industry.
They are not about providing a service, they are there to provide record profits every quarter to the shareholders, just like the banks.
Apparently just a healthy profit is not sufficient to sell shares these days.
The fact that there was only one reasonable company to deal with should have been a warning sign.
Only update I have is with TD Insurance. I was tipped by a member that they sell it. So I called, and the agent I spoke to said they don't sell insurance for off-road bikes. So I called back, got another agent, same thing.
After communicating again with the other member, I was able to obtain an online quote for my family dirtbikes from TD Insurance. But it's road insurance, not off-road. They have a pull-down list where you choose your motorcycle, and all the off-road models are there alongside the on-road models. They don't seem to distinguish. This is... ok I guess, because I actually have my M license with a clean record. But the price is about $200-250 per bike instead of <$100 that off-road insurance normally costs. The only good thing is they offer OPCF 32 for no extra charge, which means the family is actually covered if riding off-road. So it's not just paying $250 for a piece of pink paper. However, this is still a high price so I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Also no guarantees that if I call to actually buy the policy, they will actually put it through. They might find it odd if I'm insuring 5 motorcycles for myself.
Good news, is that the quote for my personal CRF450L, including theft/collision, is actually a little less than I'm paying Wawanesa without theft/collision.
After communicating again with the other member, I was able to obtain an online quote for my family dirtbikes from TD Insurance. But it's road insurance, not off-road. They have a pull-down list where you choose your motorcycle, and all the off-road models are there alongside the on-road models. They don't seem to distinguish. This is... ok I guess, because I actually have my M license with a clean record. But the price is about $200-250 per bike instead of <$100 that off-road insurance normally costs. The only good thing is they offer OPCF 32 for no extra charge, which means the family is actually covered if riding off-road. So it's not just paying $250 for a piece of pink paper. However, this is still a high price so I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Also no guarantees that if I call to actually buy the policy, they will actually put it through. They might find it odd if I'm insuring 5 motorcycles for myself.
Good news, is that the quote for my personal CRF450L, including theft/collision, is actually a little less than I'm paying Wawanesa without theft/collision.